View Full Version : Copyright Laws
i think we should start a thread about copyright and its laws,it's not only interesting in general but also specially for the musicbusiness.
first of all i wanna say i'm not a lawyer but i read many books and articles about copyrights because i was always interested in it. in general copyright law is a really complex and difficult field,even normal lawyers don't know much about it that's why there are specialised copyright lawyers.
everything i say in this thread doesn't need to be true 100%,i just talk about the things like i learned them but that doesn't mean i'm always 100% right as copyright laws change with the time and once again the whole copyright laws are really a complicated subject,so don't take this for granted just see it as advice!!!
most people don't know much about copyright laws and most of them probably already broke the copyright laws once or even more often before. one of the biggest discussions started about it when people were able to download and upload music in the internet. as long as you are the copyright owner you can do that as often as you like but most of the people aren't the copyright owners. some are aware that they break a law,some maybe not and some others don't care cause they think they don't get caught cause there are too many doing it,but once you get caught you won't be lucky anymore. i just know 2 cases among my friends who got in trouble with the copyright law and wanna talk about them here so you can see what happens if you don't care about the copyright:
1.one friend downloaded thousands of songs illegally online (i can't remember if he also uploaded them which is possible too). one day the police rang the bell at his door and confiscated his computer and all the cds he ever burned and he got a letter from a lawyer who wanted to sue him for the amount of 25.000 euro for massive illegal music downloads. i personally think it would have been cheaper to buy all the original cds of all the artists that he downloaded songs of,but back to the case.
he was really lucky that he was a poor student who didn't have any money so in the end he agreed to the deal of the lawyer to only sign a contract that he won't do that anylonger in the future and he only has to pay for the lawyer costs which were either 1500 or 2500 euro (can't remember the exact amount) and in addition he never got back his computer and burned cds.
i wanna mention that this doesn't always happen if you are poor,he had big luck with this result,just imagine he would have to pay the complete fine,one has to work probably about 10 years to save 25.000 euro and would it be worth it? i don't think so!!!
2.an american photographer i know,once found someone who sold her photos at ebay,i don't know how many times that person sold her photos but she told me she sued him for $15.000. for that amount of money you probaby could have done your own photosession with that star :-)
sometimes it sounds like the fine you have to pay isn't fair but on the other hand who started to be unfair? the one who broke the copyright laws!!!
so i can only highly recommend NEVER BREAK ANY COPYRIGHT LAWS!!!
many never get caught but once you get caught you have to pay for all the others they never caught,it's not worth it in my opinion.
does anybody of the members here know others who were in trouble cause of copyright violations?
Cool thread frankie. I have so much to say on this subject frankie lol, just not enough time to do it right now :-p
Just something else to add to it quickly though... another thing to think about it is internet etiquette :-D
there's another word for internet etiquette = netiquette :-D
by the way protecting copyright laws is part of the netiquette too i think,e.g. if i write a review about a marya roxx concert you are not allowed to publish the whole review on your homepage or anywhere else without my permission. it's not nice if anybody does it anyway and also it's against the netiquette.
I think a good rule to go by is...if you didnt make it, dont use it!!
I think a good rule to go by is...if you didnt make it, dont use it!!
excuse me anji but here i can't agree,you didn't make marya's cd but you listen to it (therefore use it)
you didn't make this forum but you use it,etc.
so it should rather be something like if you don't have the right to use it don't use it ;-)
Prokopis
13-06-2009, 18:08
haha don;t understand nothin:-) but why to make a special thread about copyrights and rules? u can find all the rules in The section in a forum.I Agree fully with frankie and nice he notice and made a special thread but for this aware is the admin that made the forum graphics etc:-):-)
hey prox,
you are probably right that you don't really understand what this thread is all about ;-)
we talk about copyright laws in general (and not only about the ones here in the forum,actually the rules of this forum have probably more to do with the netiquette that deb talked about) and it's a very interesting topic in my opinion.
it has not only to do with this forum or the admin,everybody who writes music,lyrics,books,paints,makes photos,etc. deals with copyright and everybody should know how to protect his/her copyright and everybody should know how not to break any copyright laws.
and even if you are only interested in marya then you should also take care that nobody breaks her copyright,if you see anybody copying her music or photos,etc. try to stop him and let marya know about it. that's also a way how to support your favorite star :-D
excuse me anji but here i can't agree,you didn't make marya's cd but you listen to it (therefore use it)
you didn't make this forum but you use it,etc.
so it should rather be something like if you don't have the right to use it don't use it ;-)
let me explain further then as i see you read it literally but i didnt mean use it as consumer/customer etc, i meant use it for your own website/artwork etc.
You can not use something that someone else made and pass it off as your own.
hi anji,
it's getting really interesting now :-D
as for copyright laws each little detail counts and sometimes it's really hard to understand what is meant and once again i wanna correct you:
indeed there are ways to use something that someone else made and pass it off as your own,one good example is the song time to run on the marya roxx cd,phantom blue wrote this song and already recorded it many,many years ago but it's a marya roxx song too
the reason is marya got the right to record this song from the original copyright owner
so once again my description "if you don't have the right to use it don't use it" fits better
another example is if you buy the copyright of a song from someone who wrote it you can use it in anyway you want and it's yours even though you didn't made it,right?
Frankie hun, you're saying exactly the same thing i am but its ok, i will let you say it how best you think :-)
Btw i have had to understand copyright as a dj, and there the lines are even harder to explain.
like i said, if you dont have the right to use it, then dont use it.
But if you like your explanation better then great :-) i know what i mean and it's the same lol :-p
I think internet etiquette is more fitting for what we are trying to drum into fans who are trying to help promote Marya and don't quite understand what they're doing wrong.
now i'm happy with your post anji also about the netiquette :devildance:
yeah we might thought the same but expressed it differently,you probably know as good as myself that when it comes to laws each little word can cause a different meaning,that's why i'm so picky ;-)
if you work as a dj what things do you have to take care of in your job as far as copyright goes?
bloodflowerz
14-06-2009, 13:23
Wow, extremely interesting thread, Frankie! As you, I've also been very interested in this subject for many years. It's presently in the media here in Switzerland again, because new laws have been passed and are coming into effect (I think as of 1st. July) which will cause a witchhunt on illegal downloading of music in particular, but also movies, on a scale which we can't quite predict. Enormous fines will be given even to small downloaders and in severe cases jail sentences are likely. So, I do think this is an important issue to discuss!
if you work as a dj what things do you have to take care of in your job as far as copyright goes?
I don't work anymore as i'm sure you can understand it's not a family friendly line of work :-(
But i was self employed for many years and that meant making sure i didnt get sued lol, when i worked for a company everything was provided for me so i didnt have the headache.
First, in the uk you have to be a registered Dj, if you aren't then you dont have the copyright protection that allows you to play records.
If you're not registered then you can't get insurance (which many many dj's operate without) this covers you not only for cancellations,damage to equipment while working etc but also if anyone brings a case against you for copyright infringement.
Once you have this you are allowed to play any publicly available cd as long as they are the original cd's. There have been many cases of Dj's being prosecuted for using downloads (not even purchased downloads are ok) or copied cd's. If you get inspected you must show all cd's are original.
2 cases i am always reminded of are:
a civil complaint filed by the RIAA against one DJ company resulted in a settlement which kept the DJs out of jail, but left them with a bill for £250,000 in damages.
A £10 million suit was also filed a against a DJ franchise which created it's own unauthorized CD compilations which it distributed to it's member DJs. That case was also settled but the owner filed for bankruptcy soon after.
There are no copyright laws that allow anything close to what these guys did, if it's not original then you dont have the right.
Another area is mixing, and this is the area that gets really blurry between what is legal and what is 'ethical'.
Registered Dj's are supposed to be somewhat protected with this though i dont know of any cases to use as example.
Legally, you do not have to ask permission to use a song for a mix if you are 'live' mixing at a gig, you are not allowed however to record and sell it, there is no law that allows this, however many dj's with record deals or who have done a really good mix often get 'permission' from the original artists, as usually it's accepted that a good remix can help an artists career rather than hinder it, so while there is no actual law covering this there is a 'proper' procedure to go through to make sure you havent offended anyone or made your living through stealing music.
Older music is generally accepted, though again, there is no specific law against or for it. Most artists usually waiting to hear the mix before acting upon it, if at all, some will upon hearing it, even endorse it.
Don't know if you have heard of an old sitcom here called 'only fools and horses' but it was big in the 80 and 90's, but David Jason 'Del Boy' heard a remix of the title music a young Dj did, and put his name in support for it sending it to number one in the charts.
Another example is I have sent requests off in the past to record companies for permission to use parts of songs, and got replies back stating that proffessional Dj's are tentatively permitted to remix songs for non sales purposes, so i can remix a song but not sell it. If done well, i get a good reputation and they get possible sales of the original song.
Another thing alot of Dj's do is sell Cd's of gig's they have done, this is an absolute no no and if caught can get your butt in court quick.
That's as brief as i can make it and still make some sense i'm afraid lol
bloodflowerz
15-06-2009, 17:22
Very very good summary, Anji! Thanks a million for this - extremely interesting, I must say!
thanx for your detailed answer anji!!!
it's interesting stuff and it fits pretty much to what i know/expected.
actually when an artist plays live he can perform any songs he wants as long as the royalties get paid (usually the club owners care about that). you can even perform original songs with your own lyrics,e.g. the german band J.B.O. does it,they often cover famous songs but write their own funny lyrics to these songs. when they wanna record these songs they have to ask for permission and they do not always get the permission for that but when it comes to playing live they can play the songs where formerly the copyright owners didnt give permission to record these songs. sure they aren't allowed to record these liveshows and sell them as live-cds.
on the other hand when you wanna cover a song to record it on your own cd you need to ask the copyright owner for permission. by the way the copyright owner doesn't necessarily have to be the person who wrote that song cause sometimes the writers sell their copyright to others,it's best to ask the record label about who owns the copyright of the songs.
vanilla ninja (marya's ex-band) had some troubles with david brandes their ex-producer and songwriter who also had the copyright to some of their songs (at least i think so),so some fans were in fear that vanilla ninja wasn't allowed anymore to play their songs live but that problem didn't existed,they can always play all their songs live even if david brandes doesn't like it but what david brandes can do is forbid them to record these songs and use them for compilations or live-recordings.
same procedure for coverbands,e.g. you wanna form a bon jovi coverband,as long as you only play liveshows and pay the royalties nobody can get you into troubles,but you aren't allowed to record these songs and publish them.
i'm not 100% sure but i think you are also not allowed to put recordings of these shows on youtube.
Prokopis
15-06-2009, 21:47
wow so interesting anji i hate this story with brandes so nice that marya did not co-operate more with him(:
Thanks Anji, its interesting!didnt know that...
but do u all know that pirates here have their shop as any other legal shops...
and if I wanna buy some original cd I have to go to other town to buy it, but it is so expensive and I never find what Im looking for...
bloodflowerz
15-06-2009, 23:24
Yes, it's the same in many other countries also, JAS. Sad, but true.
You see pirate dvd's and cd's at car boot sales and markets over here, but not real shops. It's big business unfortunately :-(
Prokopis
16-06-2009, 01:06
[QUOTE=Anji;29004]You see pirate dvd's and cd's at car boot sales and markets over here, but not real shops. It's big business unfortunately :-([/QUOTE
so true anji and this business attracks more and more people:hmm::hmm:
when i was younger i did not know that if we buy a pirate album is illegal and its like we are not help the artist.but know i have realised and no more pirate cd's no more the cheap way we must support our favourite artists and buy their original albums ,we should show honor if we true supporting an artist i hope more and more people realise these asap and get away from this dangerous businnes who kills the music.:-)
Yup, here in my town there are many pirate's shops... But I dunno, I am kind of reaaaaaaally split on this question...
We all know it's not a good thing for an artist if fans are buying only pirates, but u have to understand, I mean, none of my friends ever bought an original album, coz here it's way too expensive, and they don't have money to buy it but they still wanna listen to that music. So, I perfectly understand why they are downloading free music or buying those pirates albums...
I mean, I had to do it, and I am still downloading free music from the internet... I am buying only the albums I extremely like and not find that investiotion a waste of money :-):-):-):-) But, honestly, I have only 5 original CDs and none is from Serbia, I got it from friends all over the world, coz here there's no way to find what I am looking for... xD But at the same time, I realize this is bad for artists, but what are poor fans other to do than download or buy a pirate album? I am against it but at the same I understand it xD :-):-):-):-):-)
Prokopis
16-06-2009, 01:19
Yup, here in my town there are many pirate's shops... But I dunno, I am kind of reaaaaaaally split on this question...
We all know it's not a good thing for an artist if fans are buying only pirates, but u have to understand, I mean, none of my friends ever bought an original album, coz here it's way too expensive, and they don't have money to buy it but they still wanna listen to that music. So, I perfectly understand why they are downloading free music or buying those pirates albums...
I mean, I had to do it, and I am still downloading free music from the internet... I am buying only the albums I extremely like and not find that investiotion a waste of money :-):-):-):-) But, honestly, I have only 5 original CDs and none is from Serbia, I got it from friends all over the world, coz here there's no way to find what I am looking for... xD But at the same time, I realize this is bad for artists, but what are poor fans other to do than download or buy a pirate album? I am against it but at the same I understand it xD :-):-):-):-):-)
of course daario don't worry you are not the only one:-) :-):-)these buisness wants to earn money but in this way it is bad for the artists:-) if you could reduce your download and try more to buy some original albums it would be awesome because we are musicmaniacs and we support an artist like marya so we should be against all these buisness!!:-):-):-)
I have, like, a little strategy xD...
If I've download some album from the internet and totally like it, I would consider buying that album :-):-):-) But, I can't risk to buy an album I don't even know how it sounds (talking 'bout pre-orders) coz my parents don't give me that much money. I need a lot of time to save the money for any album, and I always need at least as much money to pick it up when it arrives, coz I really can't find 80% of artists I like in my country xD But one day, when I'll be the one with da money, I'll spent all of it on albums, coz I am an originals-freak.. xD:-D
Prokopis
16-06-2009, 01:40
I have, like, a little strategy xD...
If I've download some album from the internet and totally like it, I would consider buying that album :-):-):-) But, I can't risk to buy an album I don't even know how it sounds (talking 'bout pre-orders) coz my parents don't give me that much money. I need a lot of time to save the money for any album, and I always need at least as much money to pick it up when it arrives, coz I really can't find 80% of artists I like in my country xD But one day, when I'll be the one with da money, I'll spent all of it on albums, coz I am an originals-freak.. xD:-D
Very Good Stategy Daario!:-):-) That's Why In Some Sites That You Order an original album contains a sample of the songs to listen :-) hehe can't find artists i like here too and that's grrrr annoying and they sell only hit albums...:-(:-(
Very Good Stategy Daario!:-):-) That's Why In Some Sites That You Order an original album contains a sample of the songs to listen :-) hehe can't find artists i like here too and that's grrrr annoying and they sell only hit albums...:-(:-(
Yup, I know what are you talking about... It's not faaaaaair :-(:-(:-(
Prokopis
16-06-2009, 01:50
umm and that depends to the record labels because they release the albums in the countries they want if it is not an international album like vanilla ninja's albums (:(: that's why you cannot find your favourite artists!.All In All These Thread is very Interesting And is very Good To Discust some important Things for the music and the copyright laws!
Very Good Stategy Daario!:-):-) That's Why In Some Sites That You Order an original album contains a sample of the songs to listen :-) hehe can't find artists i like here too and that's grrrr annoying and they sell only hit albums...:-(:-(
Totally off topic and random but just wanted to say....
Prox you're English has improved SOOOOOOOOOO much :-D This forum has many uses lolol
Prokopis
16-06-2009, 10:49
Totally off topic and random but just wanted to say....
Prox you're English has improved SOOOOOOOOOO much :-D This forum has many uses lolol
Haha Yes Deb!!:-):-) yeah this forum helps me a lot in many things!:-)
here in germany we have a big chain called "saturn" and they have many cds and you can listen to them while you are in the store,you put the labelcode unter a scanner and can listen to each song for 30 seconds,that way you can find out if the music is great or not.
there are also webpages where you can check out cd's,my best advice is:
www.jpc.de
this page is also available in english and here you can find most albums of rock and pop and you can check out the songs,e.g. they have vanilly ninja cd's and also the triinu cd,so if you don't know if you like a new cd check it first and then you can deceide if you buy it or not.
i personally only like about 10 bands and from these few i buy the original cds,if a band has only 1 good song i don't care of them cause i want bands where every song is great,the rest can go to hell :flutter:
bloodflowerz
16-06-2009, 15:20
I can also recommend cdbaby.com - a fantastic website which helps unknown artists to distribute their demos/cd's to a wider clientele and only charges the artists 10% for the service!!! I've bought hundreds of cd's there. Also, you can listen to entire songs or partial songs there before buying. They even send the cd's minus the plastic, if you want to save postage! Highest recommendations! :-)
maybe you guys heard of the dude who published some of the new guns'n'roses songs from the new album online a few weeks before the album got released.
i heard they wanted to send him to prison and he was supposed to pay a big fine,has anybody heard of what happened with that guy?
so you better don't publish any songs of albums that aren't released yet unless you wanna get into serious trouble!!!
bloodflowerz
26-07-2009, 17:23
No, haven't heard of that case, Frankie! But it does seem to happen regularly with movies with very severe consequences for those caught...
I remember something about that frankie, can't remember what but I remember lol.
badforgood
26-07-2009, 21:31
I know what you're talking about frankie. He was sentanced to two months home confinement, and a year's probation. He also has to appear in an anti-piracy commercial.
bloodflowerz
27-07-2009, 09:35
:shock::shock::shock:
So let that be a lesson to you all :-D
Although I have to admit I am partial to a bootleg or two myself :devillaugh:
Does that make some of us hypocrits? :hmm:
badforgood
27-07-2009, 13:49
I don't think so. It's not so bad if someone just shares the odd live recording, or even something so old that it's gone out of stores and artist isn't making a profit off of the sale of new copies anymore. But if you're trying to get a new album out there, it definitely matters, because you're cutting out some of the demand for that album. If a legendary rock group is worried about the effects of their album being shared among their huge fan base, some on this board should use that as an example and think about how harmful it could be for Marya to have her music shared among the fan base she has. :-( To me, that's the difference.
Yeah I agree 100% Val :thumbsup:
badforgood
27-07-2009, 14:47
:shock::shock::shock:
Oh, and I should add that his punishment was lesss than they wanted to give him. The prosecution sought six months in prison and a $371,000 fine. And, people convicted of copyright infringement can spend up to a year in prison.
maybe this should be posted in the 'other' threads :hehe:
maybe this stuff should be posted as private messages to some members :-D
bloodflowerz
28-07-2009, 00:05
:-)
I really cant understand whats so difficult to grasp about this, especially some of the more recent copyright abuse we have see on this site, those situations are pretty straight forward in my mind :hmm:
bloodflowerz
28-07-2009, 13:45
Well, there will always be those who don't get the simplest things...
Prokopis
28-07-2009, 14:15
Well, there will always be those who don't get the simplest things...
:hmm: Completely Right
Here's one for our older members :-D Like me some of you were alive in the days of vinyl :devillaugh: And if you were like me you spent an absolute fortune on it. They cost lots of money and got scratched and ruined very easily and now are nothing but a pain in the butt and collect dust. Then came along the cd and they wanted to cash in and make us buy them all again, Which for a lot of them I did. Then comes the internet and the ability to download these albums for free if you know where to look.
So those who are against this usually, would you be in these situations? would you feel you've paid your money anyway and are just backing it up so to speak :-D or is this still a no no.
Prokopis
17-08-2009, 00:54
Oh Deb You Are Absoutely Right!!!!! i love vinyls even i was not alive in ''Vinyls days'' and this example really suits and its very simple!! thanks for sharing your thought with us deb i think that all now can understand why is illegaly to download music from the internet!
prox I'm actually all for downloading something I've already paid for that is now no use to me :devillaugh: Just wondered how everyone else felt on it :-D
well i personally like cds and only have a cd player to listen to music and so of course i bought all the original cds of my favorite artists,right now i'm happy to say i have all the cds i want :-D
maybe i should add there aren't that many bands i like and i'm also not like kids who listen to the charts and want this today and that next week,i'm not interested in bands with one good song they all should be great and that's why there aren't many cds i have to buy,e.g. last year i bought 4 new cds and these were all i wanted and needed.
as for the vinyl thing,sure in the past i also had records and before that even normal tapes but i sold them and for that money i bought the cds.
so there's no reason for me to download any music.
if you think in the way that you don't wanna pay money for a download cause you already spent money for these songs on vinyl and/or cd i wonder why do you still want to download them? you already have them.
and in case it's because your records are broken or in another way fucked up well then better take care of them. i wanna compare it with buying a tv and years later they have new tvs like the flatscreens,you can't go into the store and ask for a new free tv just because you already bought one before. and if the tv got broken then you either have the warranty or if it's already older well you simply have to buy a new one. there are many people who always buy the newest model of a computer,car,etc. and each time they have to pay for it and if you want new versions of your old songs may it be on vinyl,cd,dvd or whatever you have to pay for it.
i also understand what you meant to say with your statement deb and i can understand the way you see it but i simply don't have that problem ;-)
in theory i agree with Deb, we have loads of vinyls here but no longer have a record player and we certainly dont have the space for one anymore either, i have downloaded free music that i already have before, for different reasons, sometimes because i have lent my cd to someone or cant find it at that time, or maybe i'm on holiday and really want that song at that time, and in some cases as Deb says because we have the vinyl but no player anymore.v
Just wanted to add this for those who think they can't afford to download legally, if i'm not too bothered about having a physical cd or only want one or two songs from the album, i now always download from HMV (http://hmv.com/hmvweb/home.do) it is usually between 69p and 99p per song, this way you know you are getting good quality, the purchase still goes to the artist and you also arent downloading any viruses from dodgy sources. HMV is a worldwide company so i'm sure this will be available to most countries.
Interesting comments both of you :-D
and in case it's because your records are broken or in another way fucked up well then better take care of them. i wanna compare it with buying a tv and years later they have new tvs like the flatscreens,you can't go into the store and ask for a new free tv just because you already bought one before. and if the tv got broken then you either have the warranty or if it's already older well you simply have to buy a new one. there are many people who always buy the newest model of a computer,car,etc. and each time they have to pay for it and if you want new versions of your old songs may it be on vinyl,cd,dvd or whatever you have to pay for it.
I'm looking it more as I have these paid for vinyls and cds anyway. And way too much of my time is taken up doing things for others and the only way I will find time to transfer my vinyl / cds to my hard drive is to stop helping others lol. So for the sake of all mankind, for me it is easier to download them, as one way or another I will get them on my hard drive. Does that make sense? And in this day and age of ipods etc, it is a necssary to do this :-)
well there are always exceptions and maybe deb you are one ;-)
badforgood
17-08-2009, 22:09
I try not to download anything that's been officially released, and it helps that my dad has a record player, and the ability to convert from vinyl and tape to CD. I can see the perspective of already having paid for it when you're not able to convert it, though.
LOL frankie, I am definitely an exception :rofl:
bloodflowerz
18-08-2009, 22:44
Long live the "exception" in that case! :rofl::hehe::haha:
:devillaugh: thank Bloodflowerz lol
bloodflowerz
19-08-2009, 15:46
:yourock: :hugs:
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